Hirdaya Priya: Today Swami-ji, you were sayingI wrote it down
because I thought it was so neatyou said, If Self is somewhere
way up there and not connected to anything, then it will be confusion for
a human being.' That made me remember you having said to me: 'it is not enough
to say that the Self is not the body if you dont also say that the Self
is all-permeating.' And I thought that that must have been where my confusion
I wanted to ask you if you could help me to unfold the
understanding of the all-permeating nature of the Self as opposed to what I
was saying before, which is that Self is somewhere separate or not the body.
What can I unfold in my own understanding in order to grasp that?
Swami-ji: This forest, these trees and these mountains: you are seeing
all that. Without the spring season, they could not have become green nor
could they have flourished or flowered. Spring is permeating the forest. Thats
the meaning of springall-permeating. The same is the meaning of Selfall-permeating.
Spring is only tiny piece of your weather. Here and now, winter is not permeating,
fall is not permeating: spring is permeating. But Self permeates all the weathers,
all the directions, all the tattwas, all the ideas, all the dwellers,
all the situations. Thats the meaning.
Hirdaya Priya: In practicing the discrimination between that which
is changing and that which is unchanging, I had come to the understanding
that the Self exists as what I call 'an independent existence' from that which
is prakriti or changing. So when you say that the Self is all-permeating,
it leads me to think that there are times when my discrimination is working
to lead my attention to that which is both independent and all-permeating,
and there are times when that discrimination is actually functioning as a
divisive power. How can I know the difference?
Swami-ji: When you hear the word independent, you carry
with it an old meaning: independent of snow, independent of shovels, independent
of car, independent of your fur coat, independent of your shoes, independent
of your bed, independent of your blanket.
But I am saying that independent means there is no duality. It is all one reality.
The ocean is independent. It is not dependent on waves. It is not dependent
on fog or clouds. It is not dependent on snowflakes. It is not dependent on
waterfall. It is not dependent on rivers. It is not dependent on ocean water.
Why? It is oneness. That is the meaning of independent.
You think a person who is in the jail is not independent. He is a person dependent
on the jailer and the man who locks him in. He cant do anything. Therefore
he is seen as dependent.
Your shirt is with your body. Body is dependent on shirt. And shirt is dependent
on your body at this time. That is the type of meaning you conclude. So it
is confusion. But it is the human head that functions like that.
Your view of 'independent' is from the doers sidekarmic action,
duality. Whereas Self alone is. So where is Self going to be called dependent?
Why would prakriti in any way be called separate? There is no such thing
as prakriti separate from the Self.
Gradually and slowly, hearing it so many times, you will come to know that
which is independence.
Hirdaya Priya: Swami-ji, how then should I be thinking about discrimination
Swami-ji: Discrimination is for those people who are having indiscrimination
or ignorance. Why for Self?
You ask, 'How should I have discrimination?' You lost the point. You became
'I am the body.'
Hirdaya Priya: Right.
Swami-ji: You are always the body. And thats the problem.
Early in the morning to Mary I said, "Mary, your body died."
She didnt believe it.
I said, "It died twenty, thirty years before, when you came from Canada."
All the bodies die when you are asleep. She doesnt understand. Why? For
her birth is importantshe was born on the deck of the ship in the ocean.
And the priest came over and baptized her. Since then she is a baptized girl.
She is born, and she will die. And she wants to die earlier than myself. So
she thinks Ill also die. [Laughter]
It is very obvious. Her attention is on the utensils. [Laughter] On the pots.
They are utensils. Utensils are objects which are used, which have utility.
So she thinks, "He is sitting, so he has utility. She is thin so she has
You are not utensil.
So human beings need a little bit of patience and study and time. Whatever
comes to them, they can study it and ask someone who knows about it. And this
is what you do.
For you, you are always the body. Now its not a challenge. Its
the truth. [Laughter] Just that.
Hirdaya Priya: Swami-ji, when mentioned utensils, it made me think
that my use of discrimination has also been like using a utensil.
Swami-ji: Yes, yes. Because you think discrimination is some utility.
Or ignorance is some utility. Or language is some utility. Or chair is some
utility. Or chairperson is some utility. When you die, who bothers?
Utility! What utility do you have? [Laughter] Its a futility! [Laughter]
So when you began to think futility is utility, you are in trouble, you are
confused. That which you call all and yet see it as separate from
Self is futility.
Many people, like Dikpal, began to hear about non-existence. He
has been trying to figure it out for the last thirty years. "What
is it, this non-existence? Things exist. I see them."
And he doesnt get it. [Laughter]
Existence alone is, therefore why do you discard it? When you discard it, then
your idea is non-existent.
Dikpal: Swami-ji, 'existence alone is' is quite a different statement
than "the ring is gold."
Swami-ji: Why do you cling on to the ring now, when you have come
to know that existence alone is? When you came to know that ocean alone is,
why do you keep surfing? [Laughter]
Existence alone is. That is the view. For a human being, this view will help.
So when I say to Hirdaya Priya, "You think you are a body," if she
already knew the nature of that existence, she will never think it is wrong:
She will say, "Yes, I am body."
Then I will say, "Well look, you are seeking discrimination. Discrimination
you dont have."
Immediately she fell on the idea of a discrimination which she doesnt
have, and my words have no meaning for her. She was clinging on to the idea
of her own that she is seeking discrimination because it is out there somewhere
and if she doesnt have it, for her there is no discrimination.
Who is right? Am I right or is she right?
Hirdaya Priya: Youre always right, Swami-ji! [Laughter] That
goes without saying. Theres no discussion about that!
Swami-ji: See? If she knew that existence alone is, then discrimination
Because she is a seeker she will seek. There is no problem. You do your things.
Only one thing you have to knowmaybe two, three, four, five, two thousandbut
at least one thing should be known! [Laughter] ' Existence alone is'
is something, somewhere that you have to know.
So it is said to the human beings, so as not to let them be wasting their time
and energy, "Self alone is." How simple.
What does it mean'existence alone is?' Immediately, if you are
a scientist, you say, "What about consciousness?"
Bhakti Nath is always struggling about knowing consciousness, "If existence
material alone is, then dont you think consciousness [exists]?" Duality
Dikpal: If you say that existence is consciousness, then its
the same thing.
Swami-ji: But why would you have to say existence is consciousness?
Cant you understand that consciousness will be consciousness without
existence? [Laughter; Swami-ji laughs heartily]
Yes. You say something.
Hirdaya Priya: Thank you very much Swami-ji. I want to say how lucky
I feel that you exist because this feels like a very fundamental confusion,
and, unless I can ask you about it, it will never get sorted out. As you said
earlier, the wave of duality is never going to be able to sort itself out.
Swami-ji: Because look, you never talked. You just came and gave
speeches, and I said, "Yes, fine, fine."
You are Canadian and I kept saying, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," because
if I had interfered you would have said, "Oh hes Indian, these are
Indian views, Eastern views. I am Western. I have my Western view."
Immediately, you divided Eastern and Western.
Here I am saying "Universal alone is," and you have your own meaning
So we have to talk. In talking, something happens if I respect you, which means
I accommodate your questions. You call them right and wrong. But for me, existence
Hirdaya Priya: If I just repeat, when Im meditating and even
when Im awake, that 'existence alone is', will the meaning of that become
me, reveal itself to me?
Swami-ji: Yes, yes. Because then the meaning will come.
Hirdaya Priya: Thank you Swami-ji!
Swami-ji: Thats all! At that time it is said like that.
I was talking to Gyaan yesterday. They had Kashmir Duodarshan (the national
TV network) on the TV. From 6:00 to 9:00 I was watching a very good show,
all pop singers. All. [Laughter] All pop singers. Amitabh was there, and
Jertly was there, and that Abdul Aasan, Prime Minister or Premier of Kashmir, and
other persons were therevery famous pop singersand that woman,
Pooja Batra, she was there.
I watched up to 9:00 or 9:15. All the shows were not watchable, but it was
great. [Laughter] And I was just sitting like this and watching. Gyaan came.
And Pooja Batra said that, "Clap everyone, clap everyone, clap everyone!" Nobody
clapped [Laughter] because there was nothing to clap for. So then she clapped
herself, and said, "Look what a great clapping it is!" Anyway, she
said, "I am now going to sing that song, "Must kalandar." You
know? "Bandar must kalandar."
Swami-ji: Something like that. I heard it before and liked it. So
I asked Gyaan, "Who sang this before?"
She was trying to find out the name and I was trying to find out name. I said, "Renu
Renu, Runa Runa, Runa Renu something like that." It was not coming,
so we dropped the idea and began to watch the pop singers. And all of a sudden
it came: "Runa Lela!"
So now, the point is: If existence withdrew the word Runa Lela, it just withdrew
it. We didnt mind.
She looked at me; I looked at herwe both are almost spaced out people.
So she didnt say that she forgot. I didnt say I forgot. [Laughter]
So nothing happened and we were busy with other things.
All of a sudden it came: "Runa Lela." All of a sudden: "Runa
She was surprised. She said, "How did it happen?"
I said, "How did it happen that I said Runa Lela?" There is the Knower,
and Knower is all permeating. And Knower is all free. Knower is self-effulgent,
self-sufficient, and selfall-the-powers, self-powerful. Omniscient, omnipresent,
andwhat is [the] third one?omnipotent! I forgot this one.
If Self is all, why should it care for you to continue remembering?
It wants to do some other job. And then, all of a sudden, when it releases it: "Runa
Hirdaya Priya: So Swami-ji, when you talk about unfolding ability,
then it doesnt
Swami-ji: Yes. Ability is not the memory. And not that which you
have learnt. Thats not the meaning of ability.
Hirdaya Priya: Sometimes I think that because Im not trained
for certain things in the way that other people are, or because I dont
seem to have a natural ability to make money and support myself, I think maybe
I need to unfold that ability more. But then when I think that, it creates
a fear that its going to take me away from you and from being here.
Swami-ji: No, that is very correct. Because our purpose in incarnating
is only to get there, to unfold that. And if you think you are getting it
through being here, thats it. Why should I say anything else? Thats
your ability, your choice. When I throw you away, send you away, or remove
your concept or anything like that, then you can question. For me its
all acceptance, because existence alone is.
I do not say that if somebody is meant for this, he should do this, or somebody
else is meant for that so he should do that. Thats what the world consciousness
is. And you are victimized by that world consciousness. You have never known
that you are infinite. You know that "I am a body, a little girl, and
I have not been able to unfold those powers with which I can earn tons and
tons of money."
You are not interested in it.
Hirdaya Priya: Im not, Swami-ji.
Swami-ji: So if you are not interested in it, you know what is your
interest. People are not interested in that in which you are deeply interested.
So each one has to open the ability to know what for he is meant.
I was not meant for knowing Runa Lela. Many people say, [he imitates someone
scratching their head, struggling to remember something] "I really know
it. Its not coming. I really know it." They beat themselves for
I am able to understand that it is the Self, thats all.
So if Self is connected to me, the mind, then mind will pick it up. If Self
is not sending, as mind, I am saying, "Well, I have to remember. I have
to have the force. I have to have the power. I must remember. Let me have my
computer and see all the names of the pop singers and find out one." It
will take years! And still you will not remember.
And all of a sudden [he snaps his fingers], it came. So it is not merit.
I am making a point for you to understand. It happens with everyone. Just possible
with Dikpal it doesnt happen. So he thinks all human beings are like
that, that they remember all that they have gone through. Just possible you
are not drinking FG (Famous Grouse, a local spirit). Those who have drunk FG,
they forgot everything!
Each persons ability is his niyati (individual blueprint)
Fires ability is to burn. Sound's ability is to sound.
Unborn , undying, unchanging, this is being said. But who gets it? It must
have some kind of brain in which it should be unfolded.
If existence alone is, why is it born this time, and why is it going to die?
Many people say, "Because of this, he is like that. Because of this he
is like that; because of this he is like that." It makes no sense.
We dont know about anybody unless we come into interaction. Until then,
you dont know anything. Thats a human being.
She says, "Ability." What can ability do when ability is not coming
to you? It has decided not to come to you. Thats all. [Laughter]
So what kind of ability you want?
Hirdaya Priya: I was remembering a time many years ago when I had
written you this letter about how Id had these car accidents. So I said
the same thing to you, that I feel like theres something wrong and I
should improve on that level. And you wrote me back, saying that I was the
first and only person in your life who has said this to you.
You said, "You have to know that your nature is not that. Youre
not meant to drive a car or a taxi or a bus. Youre meant to drive the whole
world into wisdom. And its not your nature, and you shouldnt drive
a car." And from that day on I never drove a car.
Swami-ji: And you were not 'accidented!' [Laughter]
Hirdaya Priya: Im not accidented, and Ive saved a lot
of people on the road from myself.
I just want to thank you, Swami-ji. Not only do you give me the knowledge of
that pure existence that existence alone is, but that you seem to be the only
one who knows exactly what my niyati is. In understanding that niyati, it
saves me a lot of confusion as well. And I really thank you for that.
Swami-ji: Thats nice.
Hirdaya Priya: So, I think thats all. As far as ability is
concerned, it seems from what I understood of what you said that there is
no sense in unfolding ability in an area where the Self itself has withdrawn
its power and is leaving you just free to be. Is that correct?
Swami-ji: No. Its not correct because you will have to unfold
the ability. That is correct.
Hirdaya Priya: Oh.
Swami-ji: You just drop everything. Self, the same thing: "Self
is not within me."
Hirdaya Priya: Yes, youre right.
Swami-ji: You can drive the car. You can unfold the ability. You
can do anything you like. But you have to do it. What can a man not do if
he decides to do it?
You have seen many, many cases. They were small little boys. They went to
the schools. They are big engineers. Like Dattatray. What did he know except
guitar? [Laughter] But he worked hard, and worked hard, and worked hard. Just
that. And now watch. How did he do it?
[To Datta:] Computer lessons. You are giving her computer lessons! [Laughter]
You are doing it, eh?
Hirdaya Priya: Yes. Hes teaching me actually.
Swami-ji: Oh yes. See? It is happening. Thank you.
Hirdaya Priya: OK. Swami-ji, can I just ask one more thing?
The Group: No!
Hirdaya Priya: Oh, sorry. Maybe Ill ask next time. Thank you
very much! [Much laughter and clapping as Hirdaya gets off the seat.]
Swami-ji: We have all kinds of people. [Laughter] Its a kind
of show. It's just like that pop singers' show. Its just like this show.
If they can be that famous and good, why, with all the intelligence at your
command, would you not be able to spread that which you have realized?
They are convinced. They've worked hard, those musicians and those legs and
necks. [Laughter] They've worked very hard, very hard.
Cultivating the turiya state through
Deep Priya: You made a very beautiful point the other day when you
said that your role as guru is to inspire that which is already lit in us and
to allow it to grow. You added that our role toward ourselves is just to do
the same to inspire that which is already lit and to avoid bad company.
And you described bad company as the company of pain. And I found this to be
excellent advice that I really enjoy following.
One thing that you mentioned in satsang the other day, on the topic of not
being the body, was that if you are bitten by a mosquito you know that its
not you thats being bitten. And I compared that with what it is like
for me when I am bitten by a mosquito.
Swami-ji: I say this because mosquito is tiny. If you were bitten
by a snake Id recommend medicine. [Laughter]
Deep Priya: Right. But I have a suspicion that even if you take medicine
for a snake bite, which God forbid need not happen, you still know that you
are not trapped in that existence of the body. And I found that when I am bitten
by a mosquito, which sometimes happens, it takes me all my will-power to remain
meditating or to just ignore it. So in that sense I can apply the idea theoretically
that I am not the body and this is not a big deal and I can deal with that.
But I dont think I ever know what it is to not be the body.
Swami-ji: Its really a long, drawn, very stereotyped subject: "I
am not the body." I am not really interested in it. [Laughter]
Deep Priya: Dont give up! How about "I am the all-permeating
Swami-ji: You are seeing the bodies sitting in the chair. Everybody
sees. You are seeing these people and you are trying to convince me that "I
am not the body."
And I have told you that I watched hundred of bodiespop starsyesterday.
[Laughter] You could have been one of them! Dancing. [Laughter]
I was actually remembering you and Mridula, because two of the girls o the
TV were dancing the way you dance and Mridula dances. So I said to Gyaan, "Have
dancers have borrowed from the West, or what?"
And she said, "They have mixed it, that and this, some of the creativity
of India and some of them. So they are trying to accept."
So you are a body. Why do you say that "I am not a body?"
Deep Priya: Because I know that I am much, much more than that.
Swami-ji: Its very good that we do. It is like knowing that
we are not books, but how many books have we read? We never say, "I am
a book." [Laughter]
So what do you want to say? You tell us.
Deep Priya: Well what I want to say is: how can I find a practice
thats more efficient in remaining aware of the Self at all times?
Swami-ji: Very simple.
Drop your I. Thats all.
If you cant drop it, then find out how to drop it.
And find out what you are going to drop.
Then it is study.
Deep Priya: Right. That was my next question. How can I drop it?
Swami-ji: You are fully convinced that I have, I
am. I told you many times that you have shirt, you have bangles, you
have eyes, you have nose, you have everythingmaybe even intestines and
other things. [Laughter]
But you dont have I. Thats the only thing. And you
have made sambandh (relation) with the I and you are not
This I is just a relation. Relations are never real. Sambandh is
never real. Due to our language and our upbringing and our body constitutionit's
made like that, it's not the fault of the parents or our society or people
or government, neither France nor Canada nor Indiayou are convinced that
you have I.
Thats the problem.
If I is the spider then it must have network.
When I say you dont have your I, I have to say this taking
your conviction of I to be true and then denying it. I am not doing
anything very special. But I am saying that you need freedom. Wherever freedom
is, there you have to find it. Wherever you lost your ring, at that place you
try to locate it. You will find out.
You wanted your own finger ring, so you got your French I, which
must not be Iit is je. Je taime. [Laughter]
It cannot even be I.' So you have to study.
Deep Priya: Thanks Swami-ji. From what you say I understand that the
existence of the body is completely innocent. Its more on the level of
identification with the truth of the real being.
Swami-ji: Dream, deep sleep and waking statethese are three
You think the waking state is more important than deep sleep to you, and dream
state is less important than waking state.
You have to see why it is that you are awake, and waking state is carrying
your I or I is carrying your waking state. I is
awake and awaking, waking is I and both are to be located where
In deep sleep waking is not. I is not.
Have you ever located your waking state? You think that thats the work
that we do; thats the reality. So everybody is doing the job in the waking
state. And according to the waking state, they are checking the people and
how much brain and how much he is awake and what is happening. And they are
assigning this, this, this. And [a] lot of world is going on.
Have you ever thought that there is a fourth state? Never.
Fourth state [or turiya state] is the underlying reality. Underlying
reality means that out of which deep sleep arises. Turiya didnt
die just because sleep arose.
Out of turiya state dream state arose.
Out of turiya state the waking state arose. And if waking state gets
finished, turiya doesnt get finished. So is the case with deep
sleep and dream. All three interact or mix and get transformed into this and
that and interchanged, but turiya never has interchange.
Turiya is mukti, turiya is liberated state. Turiya is
not words, turiya is not the meaning.
The waking state drama and show will depend on the waking state I. Dream
state depends on dream. Somewhere, you have to have a clue of the turiya state.
You say, "Well, what about turiya? I know only three states. If
there is a turiya, turiya should be presenting before me."
Your argument is perfect niyayit or justice. Three states you observe,
the fourth you dont. Therefore here you come and you want to live or
get into fourth [for] which you have been sitting since ten oclock.
The fourth state you are in. What do you want to understand about it? My job
as a person with turiya state dweller is to touch you through my words
and get you into turiya.
And you are busy talking about ability of work, ability to drive the car, and
all that. Thats not the drama over here. The work is here that you are
desirous of having turiya.
Turiya is peace. Turiya is liberation. Turiya has no meaning. Turiya has
got nothing to do with forgetfulness or memory. Turiya has got nothing
to learn. Turiya has got nothing to forget. Turiya is only fourth
state which underlies all the states plus all the junk of these three states.
[Laughter] Thats called adjunct. [Laughter]
All those upaadis, all the names and forms, are in the waking state.
And that which senses names and forms is called human ego senseindividual
sense. Through individual sense you must say I. You cannot call
yourself awhat do we put on the face that Malti gives me?
Swami-ji: Yes, lavender. You are not lavender, though in your mothers
place there are many lavender farms. You are not lavender. You are I and
you have to deal with that.
So check the waking state. Unless it provides you with the means which you
use and unfold the turiya state, you wont get liberation or jeevan
mukti or life eternal.
Kim also comes over here many times. And when she is in the turiya state
she understands. When in the waking state, she is very fond of her concepts.
Concepts are a kind of very rigid, firm structure or mould for knowing the
So here you are talking about that for which you have an ambition. Tell me:
what is your ambition?.
Deep Priya: To unfold that ability.
Swami-ji: Yes. To unfold the realization of the Self, which means
the liberated state which is always there but underlying. It is there. Fragrance
is always there in the flowers, permeating it. But its essence comes only when
you take it out or smell it. The whole flower or all the flowers in the garden
are nothing but essence. That essence is the whole earth.
Deep Priya: Swami-ji, is the nature of that understanding more of the
nature of being rather than of understanding as we normal put the meaning to
Swami-ji: Yes. So when you know the understanding, treat it you have
come to know the truth. A human being exhibits understanding on the level of
his intellect because intellect reflects understanding. Intellect reflects
the Self. But reflection is not the Self. So up to understanding you can go.
But from where [did] understanding arrive? You have to get to that. And for
In meditation watch: waking state is gone; dream is gone; deep sleep is gone;
and it is only turiya state. Therefore when you are meditating you have
worked to dig the fourth state. So either it comes by your efforts through
meditation, or it comes through guru.
But when it comes, you do not know because it looks similar to the waking state.
You are meditating, meditating, and just no drishya, nothing.
Sometimes you remember your children, you remember your friends, you remember
your appointments. Sometimes. But if you are meditating a lot, why is it that
those rememberings no longer work? Because turiya state appearsit
is always there. It means these three states you negate, you shuffle, and theyre
gone. Turiya state is your true nature in which you feel that you are
But there is one little bit more that is coming and you must be getting
it: turiya teet, where there is no idea of birth or death. Therefore
I say you are unborn, you are deathless, amaram hum madhuram hum. But
you have not been able to unfold that turiya teet.
So these are the stages through which you get it. There are human beings who
have these states.
One state is the pure shuddh chidaakash human being in which no birth,
no deathnothing goes.
Second is the antavaahak body, which means inner antahkaran in
which you remember that I cannot really be totally bodyas some girl said,
'I am more than a body.' You remember it, but that is not yet liberation because
in that you suffer, you forget, you remember. That is your chit aakaash chit mind.
Third is the still grosser bhoot aakaash: you are these five bhoot.
Now the whole life youll remain dwelling in the middle of the five bhoot,
or bhoot aakaash, or gross field.
How would you get to that subtle stage? Only in meditation? Thats why
meditation is very important. So from tomorrow, you start meditating. [Laughter]
And thats all. Thank you. Bye everyone.